NHacker Next
login
▲Open Banking and Payments Competitionbitsaboutmoney.com
129 points by smitop 14 hours ago | 65 comments
Loading comments...
zaptheimpaler 10 hours ago [-]
I just want to easily pull bank/card transactions into my budget app, and the glacial pace of open banking really annoys me. The pace in Canada has been just as slow, although we have Interac for direct person to person transfers already so I'm not sure how much the issue of direct payments applies there.

It's really just f**ing ridiculous that some of the earliest and most important digital systems we have are allowed to wall in their data with no API access. Banks suck so goddamn hard and are allowed to operate without any real competition and don't innovate at all. They are the definition of regulatory capture.

elric 7 hours ago [-]
> allowed to wall in their data with no API access

There's PSD2 in the EU (or Eurozone? Not sure actually). Basically forces banks to open common APIs to encourage interopability and competition. However, it's not aimed at users but rather at companies in fintech building applications.

Some banks (Bunq comes to mind) offer APIs to their customers for direct use, but most don't. The reason is obviously security. People still fall for phishing, people still give fake bank staff their access codes on the phone. Giving normal users a way to have API access to their bank account would be disastrous for many of those users.

Now, it would be nice if things like PSD2 were a little more accessible and transparent. Currently you need permission from an institution like The National Bank to gain access. It's expensive and bureaucratic.

dahcryn 3 hours ago [-]
It's a great idea, but it's been killed off by the small print that was lobbied into the requirements

Basically, banks force apps or users to require you fully revalidate user consent every 90 days. And it's quite an annoying process. That means any app or integration you want to build, requires 10 minutes of your time every 90 days or they stop working. It's killed many Fintech's.

It all works on paper, but is drafted into law by politicians who have no clue about technical challenges and user experience. So in the end, it works exactly as designed by the banks: it doesn't

lucketone 3 hours ago [-]
180 days (changed recently)
eitau_1 6 hours ago [-]
I'd be more than happy with read-only access. Still potentially bad for 'normal users' but not disastrous.
nicbou 6 hours ago [-]
I was really disappointed by that. I still can't easily retrieve a list of my transactions.
moi2388 6 hours ago [-]
I am very happy with that, because it means the PSD2 providers have their security tested before they are accepted.
nicbou 5 hours ago [-]
Yes, PSD2 is overall an excellent thing. I used to be able to scrape my data with just a username and a password. This is a massive improvement.
matheusmoreira 9 hours ago [-]
I tried to do something similar not too long ago.

At the time I was using ledger for personal accounting. Ledger is amazing and incredibly flexible. Writing the journals with detailed financial data is way too time consuming though.

I tried to write software to pull this data from the banks. Got in touch with the managers at my bank and everything, they even referred me to their devs. I just needed read only access to my own bank account.

I eventually discovered I needed permission from the goddamn central bank to do this.

I also tried to integrate with my government's electronic consumer receipt systems. The idea was I'd scan the receipt with my phone or laptop camera and it'd download the data and automatically generate a detailed ledger journal entry with individual postings and metadata for every product I purchased. This was going to save me so much time it's not even funny.

I discovered I had to create a corporation to even ask the government for API access to my own data.

11mariom 7 hours ago [-]
^ this.

"Open Banking" is just… not open at all. Misleading name.

Had similar idea - just to pull my own data, tag transactions, etc etc, and have a nice stats. Nope, it is so "open" that it's just impossible to pass for single-user idea. "Open Banking" just gives me opportunity to show in my Bank A part of data from Bank B.

disgruntledphd2 7 hours ago [-]
If you're in the EU it might be worth checking out if TrueLayer support your bank.
10 hours ago [-]
toenail 9 hours ago [-]
I feel you, that’s why I’m my own bank.
tossandthrow 8 hours ago [-]
What does it mean that you are your won bank?

Do you treat your matrass like a bank? Maybe with the pidgin carrier protocol to do money transfers?

toenail 7 hours ago [-]
I use a decentralized global ledger and can make instantaneous peer to peer payments to anyone on the planet. I'm not just my own bank, I participate in a system that replaces central banks and provides a money that isn't constantly devalued. It's called bitcoin.
WJW 54 minutes ago [-]
So the miners safeguard your money (hopefully), they are also responsible for actually transmitting your money (hopefully), and you don't take any deposits or make loans to customers.

You don't hold your own money, you don't manage transferring your own money, you basically don't do any of the things a bank does. How does that make you your own bank exactly?

zaik 2 hours ago [-]
I don't receive my salary in Bitcoin and I can't pay my groceries, rent or taxes with it. People own Bitcoin because they expect prices to rise further, not for its utility.
tossandthrow 6 hours ago [-]
Bitcoin can not yet be deemed currency by commonly understood principles for a currency: You can not pay your taxes, it is not a store of value (it is volatile), and it can not generally be used to transact (Good luck getting trader joe accepting bit coins).

So that would not really constitute a bank that stores currency.

(I have nothing on crypto currencies, btw., and if it gives a feeling of agency to use them I applaud it)

Kenji 5 hours ago [-]
[dead]
CamouflagedKiwi 3 hours ago [-]
Being able to send a commodity to other people is not what people or regulators mean when they talk about something being a bank.
politician 10 hours ago [-]
> Banks suck so goddamn hard and are allowed to operate without any real competition and don't innovate at all.

It's not really the banks' fault. They're all stuck leasing expensive information systems from entrenched third-party technology shops. They don't have software development dollars and they are extremely risk averse, to a paranoid degree. Thank the regulatory environment for that (state and federal).

Companies like Moov.io are trying to crack open this space and provide the levels of integration we see in other industries.

But it's really hard and slow.

marcus_holmes 4 hours ago [-]
This is not the problem. If it was the problem then banks in (most of) the rest of the world would also be stuck 50 years in the past. They're not.
astrange 4 hours ago [-]
Other countries' banks don't have the US regulatory environment.
neoecos 9 hours ago [-]
That's why Im really bullish on Column, a tech company with banking license
cedws 9 hours ago [-]
Isn’t that basically every neobank?
mousetree 7 hours ago [-]
They don’t have banking licenses, at least not in the US
ameliaquining 8 hours ago [-]
This is only true of small banks, not large ones.
sieabahlpark 10 hours ago [-]
[dead]
AndrewDucker 5 hours ago [-]
No mention of how open banking works outside of the US, where (in the UK) bank transfers are basically instantaneous and free, and I can happily retrieve my payments list to my budgeting app.
rkomorn 5 hours ago [-]
> and I can happily retrieve my payments list to my budgeting app

Is this a UK thing? I've been searching for something like Mint/Quicken in the EU and haven't found anything worthwhile because there doesn't seem to be a standard for budgeting apps to connect to banks.

CamouflagedKiwi 3 hours ago [-]
Yes, there is Open Banking in the UK: https://www.openbanking.org.uk/ It's the UK version of PSD2 so there should be equivalent schemes in Europe.

Not that it really is as open as many of us might like - the banks did a pretty good job of tying much of it up in red tape.

gripfx 5 hours ago [-]
I use the GoCardless API to pull transactions and balances into a Google Sheet. They have pretty good coverage for UK and EU it looks like [1]

[1] https://developer.gocardless.com/bank-account-data/overview#...

erinnh 4 hours ago [-]
PSD2 is that standard.

I personally use Finanzguru (for the German market, it supports many banks).

Likely to be many others.

rkomorn 59 minutes ago [-]
Seems like my bank started supporting it last year. Will check it out.

Clearly, I must have been searching wrong!

AndrewDucker 4 hours ago [-]
A quick search shows this one is well regarded https://www.bilanceapp.com/
rkomorn 44 minutes ago [-]
Interesting... in that it apparently has the exact same limitations as my bank's built-in finance tracking feature (including being mobile-only).
marcus_holmes 4 hours ago [-]
Also Australia.
Animats 9 hours ago [-]
Remember the Synapse/Yotta/Evolve collapse.[1] That is what happens when a fintech startup has authority to manipulate customer bank accounts but is not financially strong enough to handle problems.

[1] https://apnews.com/article/synapse-evolve-bank-fintech-accou...

omcnoe 7 hours ago [-]
To be clear, the Synapse case is not clearly a financial strength issue in the sense that they took risks with customer funds, but rather an extremely serious record keeping/accounting/auditing one. Synapse was supposed to be nothing more than a "dumb pipe" between customers, fintechs, and underlying traditional bank accounts.
Animats 6 hours ago [-]
That's the problem with those things. Who's responsible for plumbing leaks?

A sizable fraction of what bank employees do involves error conditions and fraud. The happy path has been automated for decades. One of the big discoveries when PayPal started up was that they were not in the money transfer business. They were in the fraud prevention business.

BrenBarn 10 hours ago [-]
> In the intervening years, that competition has arrived. The banks do not like it, and would prefer it if it went away.

This is the conclusion of most articles about such topics. The conclusion is that we need less "knuckle-raps". Instead, a crippling sledgehammer blow to both kneecaps followed by a warning that the next will be to the skull (of the company, to be clear) unless the banks entirely capitulate, accept a massive reduction in profits and executive pay, and fully open their entire systems.

gethly 7 hours ago [-]
The entire banking industry is the most backwards, outdated and barely functioning sector in the whole world. I have no clue how we have not yet collapsed the financial system via some hack or basic data loss.
sunaookami 5 hours ago [-]
As someone working in fintech (in Europe): I agree. People always say "well at least it's tested and works!" but fintech is pure bullshittery. We wrap shiny new apps over 30 year old legacy systems written in C++ and bank employees need to constantly correct data manually. I know from a bank that has only one employee that knows about the whole system and nobody knows what happens when they retire (is already aged >50). Generally, banks rely on a very small number of (overworked) people that prevent the whole system from collapsing and they will all retire in a few years. Neo-banks and Neo-broker have their own disadvantages (like bad support, etc.) but at least they are forward-thinking.

Everything is also constantly regulated to death (and not the good kind) and banks wait until the very last day (even when regulations were passed at EU-level 6 years (!!) ago) and you then need to rush implementing it in the last month.

After working there for a few years now it's hard to trust any bank. Better not think too hard about it...

gethly 4 hours ago [-]
Oh man, so true. Don't even get me started on the red tape in EU.
blitzar 6 hours ago [-]
> I have no clue how we have not yet collapsed the financial system via some hack or basic data loss.

Sometimes not moving fast and not breaking things has its advantages.

astrange 6 hours ago [-]
Have you considered that people who aren't you aren't all complete morons?
elric 7 hours ago [-]
> I have no clue how we have not yet collapsed the financial system via some hack or basic data loss.

Banks are pretty good at not losing data. They're also pretty good at layered security.

I mean there's fraud and theft on all levels, but collapse-level events don't come from "a hack or basic data loss". They come from political incompetence and large scale economic events.

gethly 4 hours ago [-]
> I mean there's fraud and theft on all levels

you are confusing payment card issuers and processors with banks

disgruntledphd2 3 hours ago [-]
Many/most banks are also issuing banks (which means that they issue V/MC cards to their users). And fundamentally credit and debit cards are a source of credit risk and fraud for those banks.
immibis 5 hours ago [-]
We have many times. We've ruined lives and literally killed people over it, but we just accept this is how money works. We couldn't possibly consider changing The System because The System is perfect, all-knowing and benevolent. Trust in The System!

Also there's a bunch of really annoying and expensive processes for rich people to get their money back after an error, so they don't see any problem.

mightypirate 5 hours ago [-]
with all the self-custody crypto cards available right now I completely stopped using bank accounts. Can easily pull the data from the ledger and automate payments as I wish
blessedcavapoo1 17 minutes ago [-]
[dead]
contingencies 11 hours ago [-]
HN darling but ... thumbs down. Seemingly no insight. Long read (skipped most). IMHO largely valueless opine and supposition. I think we already know bankers bank, corporations can't innovate, and regulations are abused for protectionism.
theendisney 11 hours ago [-]
I had a funny chat in the 90s with soneone in charge of a bank. The thing was, they wanted me to supply a business plan. I know how to write those but find it mysterious that they want me to write it for all completely unorriginal businesses. If one wants to start a shoe store one should simply investigate the demography and map the varous shoe stores nearby. The bank is in a position to do that cheaply for their entire service area. Innovation would be to put the opportunities in the window display. Their standard plan can have everything they look for. No need to complaint that the guy who hapoens to be good at baking bread forgot something. If the data checks out you can give much larger lones with more interest. If there are many holes in the coverage you sell someone a lone for a franchise. It was a funny chat because everything was impossible, even a bank director should not submit ideas.
omcnoe 7 hours ago [-]
The bank isn't so interested in whether it's a good idea to open a shoe store or not, but in whether you as the person asking for lending has the skillset to actually execute on that plan. Asking the person who wants lending to write the plan is the easiest way to check this.
Danieru 10 hours ago [-]
The business plan is not about the business plan.

It's only even half about the business. Instead it is about the businessman making the pitch.

If someone is good at baking bread that suggest they are qualified to to bake bread. Running a bakery is a super set of that skill. The business plan request is a fantastic method to give such a person a chance to show they have the right resources, enough experience, and reasonable expectations and strong commitment.

EGreg 10 hours ago [-]
Well of course. That’s how most gatekeepers act.

Why does every employee in the US need to pay an accountant to file their corporate payroll taxes, when the corporation knows how much they paid and can just use THEIR accountant to report this same information? It would be standard across many employees. And in Europe that’s largely what’s done. But in USA this creates many “bullshit jobs”. The IRS just closed their free file under Trump admin, and even when they had it, you had no way to electronically submit business taxes, and even if you mailed those to the IRS (still allowed) some states have NO WAY for you to file taxes without an accountant!

To open an LLC in NY you must announce it in a specific newspaper they tell you. And that newspaper charges $700. Same thing — they lobby to keep this going.

eadmund 4 hours ago [-]
> Why does every employee in the US need to pay an accountant to file their corporate payroll taxes, when the corporation knows how much they paid and can just use THEIR accountant to report this same information?

How would my employer know how much money my savings, chequing and investment accounts make? I owe taxes on all of those as well as on my income.

How would my employer know what interest I pay on my mortgage, how much I contribute to charity and my other deductible expenses?

> some states have NO WAY for you to file taxes without an accountant

Which ones?

lotsofpulp 3 hours ago [-]
>Why does every employee in the US need to pay an accountant to file their corporate payroll taxes, when the corporation knows how much they paid and can just use THEIR accountant to report this same information?

You don't need an accountant, and employees do not pay "corporate payroll taxes", they usually just pay income tax to the federal government.

And if you think tax liability is based solely on amount of pay received from an employer, then I think you must not have any experience with paying income taxes in the US.

>The IRS just closed their free file under Trump admin

Free Fillable Forms is still available for electronic submissions. What closed was the government provided alternative to guided tax preparation software like TurboTax.

> some states have NO WAY for you to file taxes without an accountant!

I doubt this. Please provide an example.

EGreg 11 hours ago [-]
HN anathema: crypto and blockchain — can and does trivially solve the issues Patrick writes about. You can easily make sure the account has enough money, without knowing whose account it is. Crypto is “buyer beware”. The traditional fintech system is “seller beware”. But crypto is programmable and in theory you could easily make use of arbitration, resolution of disputes, and periodic payouts etc. All without being forced into the bundle of services you don’t control, that banks saddle you with.
ryanackley 30 minutes ago [-]
Anytime I've tried to buy something with crypto, the fees have been an order of magnitude higher than interchange (credit card) fees. And unlike credit cards, the cost is put on me not the merchant.
ranger207 10 hours ago [-]
Crypto and blockchain by itself does not solve any of these problems. It's merely a payments system that happens to be on a computer natively. There's nothing technical preventing banks from getting together and making Open Banking a well-supported thing like they're supposed to be doing; it's all just code and contracts in the end. It's not that they can't, it's that they won't, and they won't for business and political reasons. Crypto is subject to the same pressures but doesn't have the same regulations to constrain their actions. Crypto's better ability to eg do international payments is not because of any technical reason but simply because they don't have the same regulations and inertia of the traditional banking system. While the traditional banking system has problems with its regulations making things too hard to do, many people prefer it to the easier to screw up wild west of crypto payments. Lots of people like the FDIC making sure their savings aren't wiped out if the bank lies on its balance sheet, or the ability to claw back money transfers if someone breaks into their account. Crypto could certainly provide those services and backstops, but they haven't yet, and based on the prevailing attitude amongst the major participants, it's unlikely they will anytime soon. The only real difference between crypto and banks as a payments system is whether or not you want to start from scratch and build up, or start with the existing morass and tear down. The latter is the safer option which many people prefer when it concerns their money
toenail 9 hours ago [-]
The idea that I’d need anybody’s permission or a regulation to allow me to give my money to somebody else is the problem.
zihotki 7 hours ago [-]
You still can - make a wire transfer or give them cash. Or what is your actual problem?
toenail 7 hours ago [-]
My actual problem is that the central bank devalues the money I earned. I'm glad to hear that the financial system works for you, and that you have zero problems making transactions to anybody on the planet. That's not true for a lot of people.
astrange 6 hours ago [-]
The second law of thermodynamics devalues the money you earned. There's no way you can have $10 that always and forever buys the same things $10 currently does.

Central banks keep its value higher than the alternative, as anyone who doesn't have oppositional defiance disorder would notice from the fact that we haven't had a Great Depression lately. Because it really gets devalued if there's an economic collapse and all the businesses you trade with cease to exist.

victorbjorklund 7 hours ago [-]
Who's permission do you need to be allowed to accept $10 in cash? I mean there are regulations but that is usually not related directly to the cash payment itself but rather that you know you might need to pay taxes or there is regulation that you can't commit terrorist acts and you know that could be the blocker but then it's not really the cash payment that is needing permission. And again, nothing that Bitcoin or other crypto is solving because you still would have to have the same kind of permission or just not care about the permission but you can do that with cash too.
astrange 6 hours ago [-]
You can't be sure of anything just because a crypto wallet appears to have a number in it, because the legal system exists, and judges don't care what you think a number means if they think something different.

Mainly this comes up during bankruptcy, but they can also just order you to return stolen funds you've received even if you would prefer not to do that.

thrown-0825 7 hours ago [-]
If only we could store financial data on a globally distributed immutable ledger with strong cryptographic guarantees.